Thrihyrne

*cannot answer your questions because of that damned Y chromosome*

*can ask a question of my own though*

Really? Remus/Sirius? I haven't seen much lately. I haven't been looking, true; but Drarry and Snarry one trips over all the time, even while trying to flee.

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Actually, she wants the article to be about slash, not so much about why women like it, so comment away!!

And not R/S now as much, but certainly if you go back in time and see what's been written in HP over time, I'm nearly certain that R/S is pretty major. That last book changed what got written, obviously. What do you think would fit in a third spot in regards to fic that's been written over the last four years? I just don't think it's R/D or Ron/Harry.

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Ah. When you started you said the article was specifically about women's reactions and motivations.

OK. To me, slash means non-canonical pairings between two men at least one of whom canon does not suggest is gay or bi. I don't boggle and say, "What is Jack/Ianto doing here? They're a canon couple!" (or even Dan Radcliffe/Draco Malfoy or Dan Radcliffe/Tom Felton (where "canon" includes "real life"--although I do expect an RPS warning on those)); but I do say, "what is John Doe/Richard Roe doing here? That's not slash, that's original fiction."

Chan, as I understand the term, is distressing to me. It's distinct from "underage", where two 15-year-olds are in a relationship. That I can appreciate; although if the relationship is going to be sexual there's only so young I can take it. Chan means an adult and a child. Disturbing because the child really isn't capable of giving informed consent--and so, no matter how willing the child is depicted as being, it's still essentially rape. Chan always needs a warning, underage not so much. Because underage is usually very nebulous. No story starts out "Remus and Sirius, who were only 14..." and the reader is left free to understand that they're 16 and over the age of consent.

Have I strayed too far?

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No, not at all! And I guess I've been misunderstanding chan as I thought it implied underage, not necessarily one underaged and one adult. I just looked on wikipedia and in a slash section, simply underage seems to be the definition for chan, but stuff like this doesn't have any hard and fast definitions, which is part of what makes it so interesting!

So you do think of Jack/Ianto as slash and not simply canonical fic? Did I understand you properly?

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No, I don't think of Jack/Ianto as slash; they're canon and I think of slash as non-canonical. But if I were in a slash archive and found J/I I wouldn't think it didn't belong there. If that makes any sense. I guess they don't fit my definition, but do fit the spirit.

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re: about popular pairings in HP: since you're more active than I am now, perhaps you could suggest what the third most active pairing is currently? I'd be willing to guess it's 2nd gen, and AS/S, but I don't know that.

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I do hang out most in Slytherin-exclusive spaces, but I believe Slytherin pairings are in fact the most popular. I think Snape/Hermione is prominent, but irrelevant to your article. But one pairing I have seen a great deal of is Snape/Lupin. Next gen is growing, but it's still got a long way to go I think.

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tiny-antares.livejournal.com

supernatural has a huge, buzzing-like-a-thousand-bees slash pairing in dean/castiel (not to be confused with the equally huge incest pairing of dean/sam).

also, there's the professionals and bodie/doyle, house and house/wilson, stargate: atlantis and sheppard/mckay, and torchwood's jack/ianto. :)

Edited Date: 2010-09-15 03:29 am (UTC)

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Ah, Dean/Castiel. See, I've not watched much SPN and I only knew about the Wincest (which I mentioned in the article). Torchwood I don't know would count as slash since Jack is omnisexual and Ianto is bi- hence the question of whether or not that's true slash. Thanks for the other fandom updates!! Boy am I out of it. :P

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Personally, I still think of gay characters as slash, although I suppose technically they're not. It's just this is the place to read about them and it's easier to group 'slash reading' and 'original fic' reading or 'novel reading' under those three headings, and that seems like enough for me!

Chan, I didn't even know what it was so had to look it up! I'm definitely not interested in underage sex if it gets too graphic. Really, I think it's probably just that so many people are so easily influenced and no one should be getting sexual before they need to IMO, although obviously some kids are ready for it before others. I don't object to writing characters who are underage so in theory shouldn't mind reading them, but I prefer them not to be overtly sexual. I tend not to read slash with characters that are too young as slash to me is all about the men, not the boys!

Incest I have no issues with at all because my understanding of it being squick is due to the issues with offspring... and in slash: no women, no babies, therefore incest seems fair game in my little world!

Top slash pairings? I don't know HP, so will give you what I would consider the more popular ones from the places I frequent. I used to be more into LOTR and definitely the major one was Aragorn/Legolas (and the RPS Viggo/Orlando) although who knows now? Personally, I'm a follower of Lost wherein the main pairing with the biggest following was Jack/Sawyer (my own favourites would be Sawyer/Sayid and Jack/Boone), although for some reason (not my thing at all) in the most recent series, Jacob/Man in Black (or Esau or Samuel or Smoke Monster, varying since no one ever seems to agree on his name). I'd agree on House (House/Wilson) and Torchwood (Jack/Ianto) and add True Blood to the mix, where Eric/Bill may find it's way near the top of the pile, though there are certainly plenty of nice-looking choices (personally I'm a Bill/Sam girl). I can't think of any others with major happenings, though these are probably not huge in the grand scheme of things!

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Yes, that's the rub: if they're already inclined toward the same sex, it's not really slash, which by its nature is about changing canon/adding in subtext to make straight characters fall for each other. But it's a bit fuzzy. As you say, we look for our m/m under the category of slash even if the characters are already gay or bi, so now there's grey area for sure.

I think the issue of chan comes up mostly in HP where the canonical characters for many of the books are underage, and authors definitely learned to warn for it. But some people love it.

I need to talk with some True Blood afficianados about any homoerotic content that could probably be traced to producers knowing about women's desire to see that on screen due to the widespread emergence of slash. It's conjecture, but probably accurate.

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snottygrrl.livejournal.com

i think the meaning of slash has changed. the original meaning was two supposedly straight characters in canon being put together, but i think the definition has morphed into merely m/m or f/f romance. i think the torchwood fandom would consider m/m as slash even though the pairings work in canon [*shrugs*]

and i'd say as/s is the third most popular slash pair these days, not r/s. i see the most activity around them (bar hp/ss and hp/dm since canon closed).

also, are you including girl slash? or only boys? there is a fair amount of gwen/morgana, morgana/morgause in merlin, but if you're only doing boys arthur/merlin far outweighs arthur/leon, merlin/uther, merlin/will. the show just doesn't have many side characters to pair anyone with. it's pretty much only about merlin, arthur, gwen, morgana, gaius, uther and guest-star-of-the-week. series 3 has just started and it looks like we're going to get more of morgause and king cen(d)red, and as well as (perhaps) another knight with an actual name (so far only sir leon has had a 'role' other than standing around in a cape).

and chan to me implies one child and one adult and i have issues with it and tend not to get anywhere near it.

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Well, perhaps slash is a more nebulous term anymore thanks to shows like Queer as Folk and Torchwood. I think I'll posit that as an element to the article. For the article I was only including m/m slash. And chan seems to be underaged, not necessarily a child and an adult, though I think that's what people find most controversial. I've read a couple of fics that I considered chan because both characters were underaged, and wikipedia seems to agree with that. But I think what most people are looking for warnings in regards to chan is the child/adult stories.

Thanks for your input!

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I think you may be right about the producers of TB. Certainly, the dream sequence featuring Bill/Sam seemed to serve no plot purpose, but it certainly fulfilled a few wishes in the audience! ;-)

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Ooooh! A dream sequence that was probably related to the producers knowing about their fan base? Do you think I'd find that on youtube? I'd love to mention that in particular. I'm just now getting the beginning of True Blood via netflix.

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Oh yes! Here tis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqTqhet3ZuU

It's completely awesome, although they stop before it gets really good, if you know what I mean. And it certainly didn't have any relevance to the plot at this point, nor has it been referred to again!

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There's also a pretty hot scene between Eric/Talbot, just before... well, that would be giving away the plot. ;-P But in case it furthers your article, here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnbE89jWXbc

And the character Lafayette (as per my icon) gets a boyfriend, Jesus, and they get some nice scenes - more loving perhaps than just sexual - too.

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snottygrrl.livejournal.com

oh, and inception has gone a little nuts with new fangirls lately. arthur/eames is the fave pairing. oh and the new bbc sherlock has brought out a heap of sherlock/holmes fics, as did the latest movie with downey and jude.

and a second on sga being v. popular

looks like the meaning of chan seems to have become more like just underage? when i entered fandom it was distinctly child/adult and not 16, 17, 18 child either, but more 12, 13, 14 child and sometimes pre-pub as well. hence the controversy.

also, are you going to bring yaoi into this?

oh, and the wiki seems to agree with my assessment of the term slash and states it much more clearly than i did, so this: While the term was originally restricted to stories in which male media characters were involved in an explicit adult relationship as a primary plot element, it is now often used to refer to any fan story containing a pairing between same-sex characters, although many fans distinguish the female-focused variety as a separate genre commonly referred to as femslash. The characters are usually not engaged in such relationships in their respective fictional universes.[3]

Edited Date: 2010-09-15 08:05 pm (UTC)

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LOL. You and I were both at wikipedia at the same time. And no, I'm not bringing yaoi in, just slash and just m/m slash at that. Anything else is going to be too in-depth for this one article.

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snottygrrl.livejournal.com

yes we were :D

but i first was just looking up chan without the wiki. when i looked at up the term via google lo those many years ago when i started this game, it only came up with definitions about child/adult sexual relationships. and referred to it as ch=child, a=adult, n=(implied)non-con. and that's what the term has meant to me. it didn't exist on the wiki or other reference places, just on fanfic definition places. now when i google, i only get an underage definition and being told it came from yaoi, even on some fanfic definitions pages, only they're on about it originating with starwars 1, which is just rubbish. i didn't find a single reference for it being child/adult.

i think the controversy around chanfic comes from the old definition, not the underage def. [*shrugs*]

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tomboy-typist.livejournal.com

Going with the paratext around AO3's logos and categories, I'd understand that they seem to believe that slash = m/m action, regardless of original proclivities. I'd be lying to say it hasn't been my understanding of the category as well. Just my two cents on that matter.

Re: incest, I'm not sure what you're asking? Most people I've spoken two are more concerned about power dynamics in incestuous pairings than about the incest itself. Then gain, I'm in ASOIAF where twincest, femslash and slash are all canon. I'd say consensual cousincest or sibcest is probably not going to get as much heat as parent/child incest, for, well... obvious reasons. (It would personally squick me out big time, but that's not here nor there.)

Just my 0.02$, feel free to prod at - sometimes it's good to articulate things etc.

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I just posted this today, goodness! :)
I think I will address the evolution of slash from its original genesis to how it's perceived now, as that's relevant to the article.

As for incest, I was thinking that between the two warnings/elements of incest or chan, chan seems to be more controversial, but that may not be the case. So much of this depends on the fandom that writing such a general sweeping article that I am can get a bit challenging.

And what on earth is ASOIAF? I may be woefully out of touch in some regards, lol.

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tomboy-typist.livejournal.com

*g* and I haven't been online for a few days, also.

ASOIAF stands for A Song of Ice and Fire, by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't had a chance to read, as you're already into Tolkien, I'd suggest you get the books - GRRM is, well, very epic. ^^

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Somebody else in my world has mentioned that book before… I think that's the universe's way of telling me to go read them! :D

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tomboy-typist.livejournal.com

GO READ THEM. No, seriously, it's worth it. Anti-manichean, epic, pleasant to read, funny, tragic, and... yeah, there's something for everyone in ASOIAF.

(Also, ASOIAF/Silmarillion cross overs are awesome. Just as awesome as Silmarillion/Arthuriana. *g*)

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jaiden-s.livejournal.com

I think slash pertains to any non-canon m/m pairings, regardless of their sexuality in the canon itself.

Chan? I've only heard it called shota...never chan, but I am really into yaoi/manga lately, so I must have missed that. Terminology aside, I'm not a fan of underage sex, unless both parties are underaged...and even then, I don't like them to be TOO young. To me, rape fic is a huge squick, too.

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