Slash meta #1: please discuss!

[thrihyrne]

Okay! I've begun reading a couple of recent-ish articles so I can have some non-anecdotal references for this article I'm writing, and came across this rather stunning sentence:

In fact, it has been argued that slash is not really about male homosexuality at all; rather, it is about a female fantasy of heterosexual sex acted out via ostensibly male bodies.

I'll be getting the book from interlibrary loan that has the essay that made this argument. I had an instant response to the comment, but rather than put out my thoughts, I'd like yours. I probably won't respond to these as I'm positing myself as an observer and will organize and interpret what happens later, but for anyone who has a thought on this who would like to share it, please do, and comment among each other. But play nice!!! No bashing on my LJ. Everyone is allowed to her own opinion.

---

For those who are interested, that argument came from an essay contained in the book Magic mommas, trembling sisters, puritans & perverts: feminist essays, edited by Joanna Russ and published in 1985. It's a bit older, but that premise still stunned me. And with a title like that, why wouldn't I want to read all of the essays?!

Comments

[sanguinity]

NB: I have extremely low participation in fandom and/or slash communities. Make of that what you will.


That Joanna Russ quote is pretty much what I always understood to be going on. If I may use Star Wars and The Princess Bride as examples, the characters are archetypes: rogue, wholesome farm boy, the clever one, the strong one, the dangerous one, the girl.

And right there, if you're female, you hit this huge problem. If you're female, that means in any given story you're "the girl." Female isn't an attribute; it's an archetype. You don't get to be the rogue. Or the farmboy. Or the strong one. Or the clever one. No, you're "the girl." Other stories may be less bald-faced about it than these two, but really, most of them aren't. So this is internalized knowledge most women have: as long as you're female, the only thing you get to be is female. There is nothing else available to you. You can't be female and something else. You're female, and that's the only interesting thing about you.

Slash has always read to me as a rebellion against the societally imposed limits of female being an archetype. "I'll be the rogue and you can't stop me. And the way I won't let you stop me is that I'll keep the male body that goes with it. Because I know that if I try to put my rogue in a female body, you'll keep trying to shove me back into 'the girl', so fine, I'm keeping the male body." In some sense, male bodies are "ungendered", by which I really mean unmarked. They're neutral. Female bodies are constantly under narrative tension to be "the girl", but male bodies can be whatever, more or less without limit or tension.

So yeah, what I see happening is that women tell the stories they want to tell, but they keep the male bodies because the male bodies have a freedom to them that female bodies don't. And then they do whatever they want to do -- including having sex with other characters -- but keep right on with the male bodies. And yes, the logic continues to follow there: because all the bodies are male, you can have sexual fantasies/interactions that are unencumbered by the sexual/sexist baggage of "female". What better way to escape the sexist narratives of society than to use a male body?


Re the assertion that these stories have nothing to do with homosexuality: if I may be terrifically blunt, they don't. There's nothing about most of these characters (as they are portrayed within many slash stries) that I recognize as being gay men. For the most part, that's just not what gay male society looks like.

What these stories read like is women's fantasies of getting to have sex in bodies-unencumbered-by-gendered-narratives. That is a really different thing than being a gay man.


NB: I should have done a better job throughout with qualifiers. I by no means to imply a universality that binds all slash into one grand "this is what is happening." A lot of stuff that I run across randomly (as opposed to what gets rec'd to me) reads to me as if this is what is going on. And to be sure, one of the reasons that I read so much of it this way could be because I've been doing this with characters since I was five or so. "I'm the rogue, and I'm keeping the male body, too, because without the male body I just become 'the girl' again."

[me-ya-ri.livejournal.com]

FYI, I write a lot of slash, plus femmeslash, het and gen stories. This is totally my POV on the question.

In fact, it has been argued that slash is not really about male homosexuality at all; rather, it is about a female fantasy of heterosexual sex acted out via ostensibly male bodies.

I can see how people would argue that and for many writers and readers I suspect that its quite true. However, for me it isn't.

Slash for me is about opening up more possibilities, about reinterpreting not just what I as a woman can do but also what men can do. There are so many rules about how people interact that are gender based, not just for women but also for men. Writing stories where two men, preferably manly-men as that's the sort of guy I like, interact romantically and/or sexually, allows me to say things about society and the way we're enculturated that I can't necessarily say otherwise.

Of course, I write a lot of AU, so I'm reinventing the rules of the world most of the time as well as putting two guys together.

I would agree in a limited way that it's not about male homosexuality. I'm not male and I'm not homosexual. However, I don't feel that the slash I write is about my fantasies as a female and the stories generally aren't about acting out a standard script of heterosexual relationships.

For what it's worth, I'm bi and somewhat polyamorous, so my slashed guys usually end up bi instead of gay. *laughs*

I think that my slash stories tend to be my fantasy of what society and interpersonal relationships could be if our culture was more accepting and more open. The smut that I do write always serves the plot and character development. PWP isn't my style.

Not sure that this is terribly coherent but it's my 2 cents.

Good luck with your article!

[mercuries.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't be surprised if that quote applies to some slash writers, but it doesn't apply to me, personally.

I write and read gen, slash, femslash, and het depending on how much the story's plot, characters or pairing interest me. The presence of romance and the gender of the people in it isn't a determining factor - it's the specifics of a story that grab my attention, the particular dynamics of particular characters, or a clever plot idea or insight. Slash is just like other fanfic genres in this respect and I don't read or write it differently or think of it differently.

In general, I don't think my interaction with fanfic is very political or id-driven. It's mostly focused on the craft of storytelling - the mechanics, the nuts and bolts, the satisfaction of finishing something. Fandom is a great playground for that stuff.

[mrsquizzical.livejournal.com]

just read the comments to this and am intrigued. there are certain points with which i agree very much, but i at heart i disagree. for myself at any rate. (i don't think i know enough about fandoms as a whole to comment broadly.)

edit to add more clarity:
(which is tricky cos i can't view the comments while i edit this :P )

agree with: not being restricted by the 'girl' archetype. sometimes it's about producing a new 'level' power structure, so far as the personalities themselves making one rather than battling against the gender constructed assumptions.

disagree with: it 'not being about homosexuality at all'. i read femmeslash because i want to read about women. i read slash when i want to read about men. sometimes i read the stories purely because of the people/characters themselves. sometimes i love the dicks. sometimes i love seeing men having broader roles than society gives them.

i love reading poly fic for a whole group of reasons, too.

[elfscribe5.livejournal.com]

I have a lot to say on this subject and it's too late to go into right now. So, what I'll say for now is that I'm suspicious of these essays that purport to tell us THE reason that women write and enjoy slash. I think there are most likely a number of different reasons that vary with the person involved and some of the academic opining I've seen seems pretentious and not very accurate. In some ways it's simple: two men together are hot. In others, maybe more complicated. I'll see if I can dig up my essays I wrote on the subject and send to you. Btw, that is a great title for the book of essays.

[gingerspark.livejournal.com]

I find two men together hot. Just as men often fantasize about two women together (as evidenced by the large amount of this type of imagery aimed at males on porn sites)

I don't participate in any fandom other than Wraeththu - which "technically" isn't m/m - rather hermaphrodite/hermaphrodite.

This wraeththu stuff appeals to me on several levels. Although I fully admit to being a perv (LOL) who enjoys m/m - wraeththu also appeals to me on a "genderless soul", growth and maturity of race, magic, etc levels.

The statement "n fact, it has been argued that slash is not really about male homosexuality at all; rather, it is about a female fantasy of heterosexual sex acted out via ostensibly male bodies." may be quite accurate for some slashers. I would even venture to say this is partially true for me. However I am doubtful that it extends to all women and all slash as not all women are the same, nor is all slash the same.

[jaiden-s.livejournal.com]

For me, it depends on the context of the slash. A well-written story that embraces rich settings and deep, thoughtful characterization will cause me to be emotionally invested in what the protagonist says and does. In that instance, it is about homosexuality because the story and the character’s nature will be entwined so tightly that there’s no separating the two. Swordspoint comes to mind as an excellent example. It’s more about the relationship between the two men and less about the time they spend together in bed.

I do find that many slash fanfiction stories fall into female fantasy, especially if the author tends to write herself into the action. She makes it easy for me to insert myself into the action as one of the males.

When considering another medium such as yaoi manga or film, it becomes even more about the female fantasy, mainly because those two mediums do rely so heavily on the visual aspect of sexuality. If a manga character is poorly drawn or isn’t visually pleasing, it doesn’t matter how well written the story may be; I can’t get past the artwork. Film is the same way. If I don’t find the characters attractive on a basic level, I can’t invest in the movie as well as I would like.

[callumjames.livejournal.com]

Hiya,
I know! I'm a guy! Not supposed to be contributing here but can't really help myself... Particularly on this topic. I dont' know if it would be helpful or not but it would seem to me that on this issue in particular, the people most qualified to say how much slash fiction has to do with actual male homosexuality might be, well, you know, male homosexuals?
I am not the best example - of a gay male slasher that is - I'm a pretty fine example of a male homosexual! But, I have often felt that, for example, there is something of a difference of tone between slash stories written by women and those by gay men... I don't have broad enough experience of reading slash to justify this as more than a hunch but I'm sure there's something in it.
Also, not so much with the HP slash stories I wrote, but certainly when, under a pseudonym a long time ago, I wrote some Deep Space Nine slash, it felt very much to me as if the largely female 'power base' in the Star Trek fandom were very happy to keep male authors at something of a distance.
Which leads me to my final rambling point which is that I'm sure that one of the things that most slash writers don't realise is how different this activity is from professional writing of either fiction or non-fiction. Slash writing seems to me to be a FUNDAMENTALLY social activity: stories are shared as they unfold, one story may have a number of different betas, stories are discussed openly and feedback/reviews are left (and often responded to by the author in turn). Whilst it might not be true to say that slash stories are written by a community they are certainly written IN community. This requires an ability to network and manage relationships which has always been presented as quite a steroypically female way of being....

just my two penneth...

[elfscribe5.livejournal.com]

slash is not really about male homosexuality at all; rather, it is about a female fantasy of heterosexual sex acted out via ostensibly male bodies.

My basic reaction to this is, if this is so why have two men together at all? Why not read the rather abundant romance literature out there about m/f sex? The question should be rather, what is it about two men together that intrigues/titillates/turns some women on. And btw, it's apparently a LOT of women. When the LOTR rage was full on, I had people from all over the world writing to me and people translated my stories into Japanese, German, Russian, and Chinese (and btw some of these folks were men). The yaoi phenomenon has a long history in Japan.

Now, when women write about two men having sex do we interject our own experiences, thoughts, desires about it? Sure. Some writers do this more than others I think. I've read m/m slash in which you might as well have made one character male and one female because all the traditional gender roles are there. I personally don't enjoy that and prefer to write my two male characters as definitely male enjoying each other as two men might (although granted I can never know for sure what that's like).

So again, the question is why would women do this? Why fantasize about relationships that we can never actually experience due to our differing plumbing? I think the answers vary with the individuals involved and the kind of slash story we're talking about, but I do think that if we're reading a hot sexy m/m story with enjoyment, at some level it's because it turns us on.

Here are some ideas I've come up with over the years:
* I think that, in general, women credit men with a more powerful sex drive, unable to control themselves to a certain extent. I think that contributes to the “hotness” of many of the sex scenes I’ve read in m/m slash and to its appeal for women. In addition (except for mpreg), a man can’t get pregnant as a consequence of this impetuousness. Does that add to the sexiness? Perhaps.

* Two gorgeous men in bed together is hotter than one. Maybe it’s the counterpart of men having a fantasy about two women in bed together. However, I think in most cases the man usually imagines sex between the women merely as prelude for him to join the encounter. I don’t think the same is true for us fantasizing about two men. Nevertheless, I would venture that we strongly identify with one or both men in the story and enjoy their relationship as we would enjoy reading about a woman having sex with a man.

* Perhaps we enjoy it because it is different and exotic.

*Two men together can, in theory, have a relationship free of stereotypic gender bias and constraint.

* Women enjoy romance. The idea of two male buddies falling into that close relationship is appealing.

*It's removed from our actual experience and that makes it more comfortable in a way. It's not like one is having a fantasy about something that could actually happen. I think this is why f/f is less popular. It might be a little too close for comfort.

* I suspect for some fanfic readers, particularly RPS, having the object of worship (the movie idol du jour) paired with another women introduces an unwanted level of jealousy and competition. Having the relationship between two men removes it from that and enables the woman to vicariously experience a sexual relationship with one or both men. Witness the desire among some fanfic groups to denigrate Orlando Bloom’s RL girlfriend and you’ll get a drift of this response. I would say a Mary Sue, where the author is clearly identified as the object of the hero's affection is a corollary to this response, i.e. it’s my alter-ego with this man, and not some fictional woman rival. Now, this last response is not exactly flattering to women, but there it is.

Sorry about all the edits. Anyway, hope that was helpful.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

I don't think that quote really applies to me; I don't get that click of recognition at all.

I write and read slash *and* het, so when I want heterosexual sex in fiction, it's perfectly available to me and there's no need to substitute it for something else. I think a big part of the reason I'm interested in m/m slash is precisely because it's the one type of sex I've never experienced and never will in this lifetime. So I'm insanely, perhaps creepily, fascinated with it and curious about it. It has the appeal of the "forbidden" not because society forbids to me, but because my gender does. It's a way of "traveling" to "another place" in my imagination, and I've discovered that I really like it there.

That's tied into why I like fiction so much overall. I like to live in the heads of people who aren't me and don't have a life that's very much like mine. Writing self-inserts and autobiography doesn't do it for me (though of course every character I write winds up with a *little* of me in him or her, that can't be avoided); I write to try on other identities, other experiences, other places, other bodies, other souls.

[leaf-light.livejournal.com]

Hmm, answering the first question last. Well it certainly doesn't apply to me as I don't want to turn anything into het sex, just because I don't find it appealing to me. I agree with callumjames comments in that the majority of slash - m/m or f/f - has nothing at all to do with gay reality. I read and enjoy it anyway. One could, I think, equally argue that most het romance doesn't have much to do with heterosexual reality. And due to my own sexuality (perhaps having a more male brain?) I enjoy good gay and lesbian written films/porn/fiction just as much but in a different way. A bit like sweet and savoury.

And from the reverse perspective would this mean that to the writer of the mentioned book if I wrote het it would be me putting lesbians into heterosexual couplings? My first reaction to that is why would I bother? I think there are plenty of reasons why people read and write anything, there aren't any single one size fits all answers.