thrihyrne | I wonder as I wander... POV musings

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I wonder as I wander... POV musings

Edit/Quick Note: I'm going to be moving and house-petsitting at a place without Internet, so if I don't reply for a day or two, it's not because I'm not interested, it's because I've gone wireless. Woe. But I'll try to check in when I can. Thank you all who have contributed your thoughts; evidently I'm not the only one who's pondered this tricky topic!

I was recently beta'ing something for someone and I pointed out how her POV had suddenly switched from character x to y. When she wrote back to me, she said that she didn't understand why I was upset at the inclusion of character y's POV. This really got me thinking (surprise! lol). I'm a music history/theory major, not English. I couldn't punctuate dialog when I first began writing because I'd never written fiction. But my first beta was good at pointing out to me when I would suddenly switch POVs. Now when I did it, it was a mistake; I didn't know I'd accidentally written about something that character x couldn't know because s/he wasn't in character y's head. I was in both character's heads; hence the confusion. I've read some stories by people who I know know what they're doing, and they switch back and forth anyway, without visual paragraph indicators that say to me, as the reader, "Hey- I'm switching POV and I'm doing it on purpose." It made me cranky. I actually kept reading one story like this, but I grumbled out loud at the author as I did it, telling her she knew better.

I guess my question is this: is it 'old school' to feel that once you start your story in one person's POV that you should stick with it, even if it's difficult? Especially when you're really dying for your readership to know what character y is thinking, you just suck it up and keep going for the good of the story (and work harder to show it, which I think is the stronger storycraft)? When I look at people's stories in which the POV flits back and forth, there are usually other indicators that it's probably a relatively new writer. To be honest, when I see it, unless it's in a story by someone who I know has been writing for some time (at which point I either want to throttle them or think perhaps it was an honest mistake) I immediately think: "New Writer. Doesn't know any better." If it's in somebody's story who's been writing for a while, I think: "Lazy." Or, "Nobody has told the poor dear that you shouldn't change POV. If you *insist* on knowing what each character is thinking, use third person omniscient or whatever it's called." [please see part about not being an English major]

But is this kind of thinking passé? Is it a trend, using willy-nilly POV, kind of like writing in present tense instead of simple past? Of the things that really really jar me out of a story, besides homophonic errors, is POV switching. I feel you do your reader a disservice by suddenly jolting her/him out of one character and into another, but I realize that other people don't mind that at all! There are also people who are used to composing their stories as though taken from an RPG, in which wandering POV is required. You won't be surprised to hear that I don't read much of that.

For you grammatically-inclined people, what are the historical rules? Are you being lazy and a bad writer if you don't stick to one POV? Or am I simply a stick in the mud? Luckily there's enough fic for all of us, no matter our preferences.

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I think changing POV like that is ONLY acceptable if it is clear from the start that the POV is changing (paragraph transitions, etc.) -- SOMETHING to indicate we are changing characters. Written in third person, that is OK. But never in first. Sorry. I'm not a writer, my grammar is terrible, but even I think switching POV's is just plain lazy.

*HUGS*

Thank you for your thoughts! I'm realizing that for many people it really is personal preference on whether it bothers them or not. I think I used to not notice until my own errors were pointed out, and now it's one of my Big Things.

(((hugs back)))

Myself, I don't care very much about shifting POV, it doesn't throw me out of a story. I know I do it, usually because I want to know what person B's reaction is to what person A has just said, and naturally I assume the reader shares my interest! (I wouldn't shift POV within a paragraph, though, because that's just confusing. And I probably wouldn't flit around for the same reason.) I suspect I don't mind reading in this way because I watch a lot of television, and you're usually trying to follow multiple POVs there.

I had a lot of fun writing one piece where the POV shifted in just about every scene, and I was all ready with a defence on the lines of: "Oooh, but it was intentional and it's thematically congrous"... but nobody commented on it.

Other things throw me out of a story, usually to do with voice, particularly dialogue that doesn't sound right. I'll forgive many technical sins if the characterization and the emotion are right.

(I wouldn't shift POV within a paragraph, though, because that's just confusing. And I probably wouldn't flit around for the same reason.)

Hmmm. This person didn't change within a paragraph, but in sections. So it sounds as though that wouldn't bother you— very interesting. I don't mind POV shifts when there are delineated marks. I've even done that. Once.

I had a lot of fun writing one piece where the POV shifted in just about every scene, and I was all ready with a defence on the lines of: "Oooh, but it was intentional and it's thematically congrous"... but nobody commented on it.

Awwww… isn't it funny how we imagine how our audience will react to a story, and I'm usually wrong. :P

I've even been known to grit my teeth at the wrong word homophones when the rest of a story is compelling, but then I find myself wondering if English is the author's second language.

PS A certain pair of twins were on the BBC's late night political chat show This Week last night, and you can watch the programme here. They were on at the end, if you want to skip through.

Ooooooh! Spiffing! I'll wait until I'm not out at the front desk to see them. Thanks so much!! :D

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altariel.livejournal.com - 2006-09-22 18:04 (UTC) - Expand

It depends for me. If the PoV switch happens often throughout the story then it's ok and if the writer can pull it off! Sometimes it just hurts the flow of the story.

If the story is written 90% in a character's PoV and then we get a sentence or paragraph in another PoV, then I consider that a mistake.

If the story is in Ron's PoV and a sentence is thrown in, like say, "Ron's knees ached." I think how could Harry know that, unless Ron told his or a preceding action showed Harry that Ron's knees hurt.

Sometimes it just hurts the flow of the story.

Maybe it's just that I'm a more high maintenance reader: I want the author to put me with one person and let me stay there. I really do find it disconcerting to be trucking along and then- WHAM! No, I'm no longer seeing the scene from Severus' POV, but instead from his gamely tied-up lover Seamus' POV, I really do find myself shaking my head. But like you and others have said (and as I realize I've written *twice*, not once), if there are distinct paragraph breaks to indicate a shift in POV, that's okay. But when it sortof flipflops back and forth, I just get irritated. Others don't.

It's considered bad form to switch POV mid-scene, but alternating between POVs when scene/chapter breaks make distinctions between the sections obvious is acceptable. That's the standard answer.

Some authors do break this rule of thumb. Mary Doria Russell comes to mind. She caught lots of criticism for doing so in The Sparrow, but then again her Threads of Grace was just a finalist for the Pulitzer, so I guess she got the last laugh. ;)

If you want to err on the side of preferred practice, though, POV changes should only occur, if at all, at the division points where section/chapter breaks are clearly marked.

PS. That should read A Thread of Grace. Brain like a sieve these days. *sigh*

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thrihyrne.livejournal.com - 2006-09-22 17:43 (UTC) - Expand

Having had a lovely beta work a very long story of mine where I committed this very sin several times, I think my response is this:

It's important to keep a point-of-view that's consistent enough not to confuse a reader. That said, it's not the be-all and end-all, and provided you clearly inform your reader whose POV you're in, and don't make those changes often enough to be wearying, then that rule can be less important than what you can tell your reader that you couldn't have if you'd stayed in one place.

In short, observance of the rule should be in service of telling your story effectively. Where the rule and effective storytelling are in conflict, the rule should lose.

Of course, as Dennis Miller says, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Oh sweetie, you know I'm not referring to you. :D I've come across it more than once, to be sure.

In short, observance of the rule should be in service of telling your story effectively. Where the rule and effective storytelling are in conflict, the rule should lose.

An interesting premise! For me personally (and this is opinion only, that's all I'm really looking for here beyond what my actual grammarian friends can enlighten for me), I thrive in having the rule there; knowing the parameter gives me freedoms I wouldn't otherwise have. I can get to a scene and realize that something *has* to be written a particular way because character x really couldn't know this about character y at that particular moment. I suppose it is somewhat limiting, but I think it makes me work harder, which usually produces more well-crafted writing. But we're all different! Joy in diversity, or IDIC. :) Thank you for joining in.

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leviathan0999.livejournal.com - 2006-09-22 18:12 (UTC) - Expand

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thrihyrne.livejournal.com - 2006-09-22 20:21 (UTC) - Expand

I think there are ways of doing it so it's obvious you meant to, and why. It can be very interesting, in a story, to go from one head into the other and see things a different way; it can also be quite moving, as you realise what character A is saying comes acrosso completely wrong to character B, or whatever.

Accidental slips can be awful, but as usual, ain't no rule in writing that someone can't break to good effect.

Your point is well taken. I suppose it doesn't bother me nearly as much when I believe that the author did it intentionally but not gratuitously, or merely self-indulgently. But that's *me*. The truth is, I want the author to stick with one. Write a little more convolutedly if need be, but in my own life I can only ever know what I think and experience, so that's what I want to read. Others obviously feel differently!

I love your musings. They are so thoughtful and interesting! :)

I have a couple of stories that the POV changed, but it was because the story just had to flow that way. I definitely knew what I was doing and put in paragraph breaks - **** - to show that something shifted.

I'm working on a story now where I've done this, but it's important to the story. I need the readers to understand why a certain character is acting a certain why.

But as a rule, I try not to do it. It can get confusing. I'm not the greatest writer in the world, I write for fun and enjoyment, so I try not to get caught up in the rules. My beta slaps me sometimes for not paying attention to rules, but that's okay, I kind of like it! ;)

I love your musings. They are so thoughtful and interesting!

Thank you! I don't know that I mean to be that way, this really did just come to mind because of something I was beta'ing, but I'm glad to inspire others to share their thoughts.

I truly don't mind the paragraph break shifting POV because I can see it there. Now, that being said, I'm now realizing that I've done the multiple POV thing three times, not two (I keep remembering more stories :facepalm:) and in one of them I didn't immediately identify the speaker and my beta got on to me about it. "I read these first three paragraphs and I didn't know who the hell it was!" she said. So I think, all in all, be kind to your reader and even if you're breaking the rules, it'll be okay.

I'm not the greatest writer in the world, I write for fun and enjoyment,

Hey! No self-deprecation! None of us are the best. I'm glad that you write and I appreciate your comments here. :)

i tend to agree with you unless (and i believe someone said this before me) the entire story is meant to change perspective and POV from time to time. i have read stories where the writer intentionaly started with one character's POV, then went to another character's POV, then back to another character's POV, and so on, and so on. i think pieces like that can be quite interesting because it's actually more of a character and perspective study, when done correctly. something like that can actually be used to help build understanding and umpathy.

switching POVs suddenly, without any warning or provacation, is jarring and can disturb the flow of a piece, tho. i think it needs to be fairly clear from the beginning if a person intends to do that, otherwise it feels sloppy.

switching POVs suddenly, without any warning or provacation, is jarring and can disturb the flow of a piece, tho. i think it needs to be fairly clear from the beginning if a person intends to do that, otherwise it feels sloppy.

::nods:: Exactly. That's usually when my 'new writer' alarm bell is ringing. Loudly. But, as other people have pointed out, it can simply be a stylistic choice. However, it'd be a story that I suspect I'd opt not to read because I'd get frustrated. Someone else might absolutely love it.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

Well, as you know I very often switch POVs in the course of a story, but I do it usually by chapter (once or twice I've done it by sections, in which case the sections are typographically set off by lines or asterisks or some such). That kind of shift doesn't bother me as a reader at all; it's usually quite clear at the beginning of the new chapter or section that it's now from someone else's POV. [To give examples of my fic you might know where I do this, Better Than Revenge and Courting the Lady both switch by chapter, and Herbology does it by section.]

Now, switching POV in the middle of things is much more bothersome to me; it's jarring. It's like being calmly lying on one's beach chair and suddenly having an unexpected wave dashed over you. My feeling is that if the author wants to be able to show what all the different characters are thinking/feeling at any given moment, the proper POV to take is third person omniscient, rather than the third person limited. [Passages was in third omniscient, basically.] If the reader has been going along seeing everything from Hermione's POV, and suddenly there's a paragraph from Ron's POV, for instance, I see that as an artistic failure.

And RPGs, or RPG-style fic -- nope. Can't really hack those. They're like chatrooms which I also have never been able to effectively survive; I simply can't keep track of what's going on well enough to participate.

Yes, to everything. :D If I can tell the author has done it on purpose, that's okay, and stylistically it can be quite compelling, especially as someone said up the thread if it's to show how one person is misinterpreting the other. I'm backing off a bit from my initial stance, but my personal preference is still for just one POV per story, though I've certainly read and enjoyed others that don't do that. And I've written some that way. The jarring ones I think are obvious mistakes that probably the author doesn't even realize.

This topic has come up in my circle of friends and writers recently. The general opinions came down to two thoughts on the matter; Change of POV is ok if there is a line break/segment break indicator to clarify it AND/OR that it is more acceptable in romance/sex scenes. The thinking being that an omniscient POV can actually make a romance/sex scene more enjoyable and fulfilling and that stopping to break a scene with a segment line can be a distraction.

For me, it comes down to good writing. A good writer can get away with more because I'm just going to be pulled into the story and I could care less about technical things. However the same technical issues might become a distraction in a story that I am less interested in.

I don't really see POV as something that has a right or wrong answer, not in the same way there is a right and wrong way to use punctuation. It's a style choice - and some people are better at it than others.

As a writer, I'm still working my way through this. I have one beta who will nail me on it if I do it, and another beta who likes to know what both people are thinking. If I write a POV change there is still a consistency to it. I'll write an alternating Harry and Ginny POV, because the whole story is from them, but I wouldn't suddenly throw in something from Arthur's POV. KWIM?

Bit of ramble there...heh :)

Change of POV is ok if there is a line break/segment break indicator to clarify it AND/OR that it is more acceptable in romance/sex scenes.

That's a fascinating comment. I was doing some research into slash (as I am wont to do) and came across someone looking at it from obviously outside of fandom but this person commented that often in slash the POV switches back and forth as a way to explore both characters as part of the sexual element. At the time, I thought, "WTF? I don't know anybody who does that!" but you've just indicated that that is seen as a legitimate reason to do so. Wow.

and another beta who likes to know what both people are thinking.

So does the second beta encourage you to write multiple POVs or to write in third person omniscient?

Thank you for rambling! Come by anytime. :)

Switching POVs doesn't bother me as long as it's clear from the start that's what the author intended, with different sections/paragraphs from different POVs. But reading a story where it's ONLY from one POV and then to suddenly switch for just one thing in the middle of the story is very irritating. I like a little bit of consistency.

*shrugs*

But reading a story where it's ONLY from one POV and then to suddenly switch for just one thing in the middle of the story is very irritating. I like a little bit of consistency.

I agree. Somebody had better be going through a mind-meld or something for this to happen. :P

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thrihyrne.livejournal.com - 2006-09-23 13:59 (UTC) - Expand

What I think is amazing is that I never even thought about this rule until this year. I think when I was last writing fiction, in college, er, 20 years ago, I always wrote short pieces from a single viewpoint. But here in fan fiction land, I stuck my neck out and made a lot of mistakes, including POV switches, present-tense stories, and all of that.

Beta-reading other people's work brought me to my senses. A single viewpoint for a short story makes it so much easier to create a feeling of integration. There is better dramatic tension.

When I beta-read, I generally don't demand that other writers stick to a single POV throughout a story. I'm okay with POV switches in sections or chapters. I think the main thing is to create transitions that make the POV switch clear without just slapping up a heading, POV SWITCH HERE!

A single POV per story is my new ideal, though. It does something else for the story that I desperately need. It forces the writer to make the characters DO things. If you can't hear their thoughts, how can you know what motivates the non-POV character? That is a big plus for me.

But here in fan fiction land, I stuck my neck out and made a lot of mistakes, including POV switches, present-tense stories, and all of that.

I think that's how we all learn, yes? ::smiles reassuringly::

A single POV per story is my new ideal, though. It does something else for the story that I desperately need. It forces the writer to make the characters DO things. If you can't hear their thoughts, how can you know what motivates the non-POV character? That is a big plus for me.

I second that concept. I *like* holding myself to that rule, as it kindof makes things easier in that I do have to force the characters to act in a particular way so the reader will know what's going on. It reminds me to write more thoroughly, I suppose, because the reader, unlike me, doesn't know what every character's motivations are, etc. etc. But that's a stylistic preference, I realize. Then again, I don't usually like reading things that confuse me, which again is a personal preference. Other people may really love reading something obtuse and then finally figuring out what's going on. I'm just not that clever a writer.

I change POVs ALL the time, within one chapter, no matter what voice I'm using (most especially with my Theodred/Boromir stuff). I am very careful to make sure that it's obvious I've switched POV, though, because it's terribly confusing when that break isn't clear. I do try to steer clear of doing it within a paragraph, because it's much harder to delineate one POV from another. It's something I've always done, because I am nothing if not all about the introspection, and I want inside everybody's heads. :)

I think that the party line is "stick to one POV within a chapter", but as I'm also not an English major, I don't know that for certain. And you're right, it does seem to be a bit trendy to jump around inside of everyone's heads. I don't think it's necessarily the sign of a bad/lazy writer (well, I wouldn't, would I? heh), but I do agree that bad writers seem to switch POVs like clumsy partners at a square dance.

And another Pulitzer Prize winner, Larry McMurtry, leaps his POV all over the place in Lonesome Dove, and I honestly never noticed. Until I did, and then I thought, "Wait. Has he been doing that all along?"

And you're right, it does seem to be a bit trendy to jump around inside of everyone's heads. I don't think it's necessarily the sign of a bad/lazy writer (well, I wouldn't, would I? heh), but I do agree that bad writers seem to switch POVs like clumsy partners at a square dance.

I suppose that it can indeed be done well, but my instinct still holds fast to "just work a little harder and stick to one person unless you're splitting up the POV with paragraph breaks." But it's personal preference. All rules are meant for breaking, and all that, though it is good to *know* the rules first!

And another Pulitzer Prize winner, Larry McMurtry, leaps his POV all over the place in Lonesome Dove, and I honestly never noticed. Until I did, and then I thought, "Wait. Has he been doing that all along?"

LOL! I suppose if it wasn't jarring to you, then it doesn't matter so much. I'm just hyper-aware of it right now, but if done well, perhaps I'd be okay with it.

I would call switching POVs an advanced technique useable by those who know what they're doing, which is the same opinion I hold about present-tense, 3rd-person omniscient, and a number of other things that new writers try and fail at. Fan fiction as a whole tends to be very basic, transparent writing--easy to read, easy to write, but sometimes a little bland (most genre writing also falls into this category). One of the things I love about book-verse LOTR writing is the ability to stretch a little without being called on it.

One of the things I love about book-verse LOTR writing is the ability to stretch a little without being called on it.

Interesting comment— I have the sense that LotR fanfic readers are actually more demanding of their fic than HP, and those are the only two fandoms I know. My last Gimlific story did pretty well in the HASA reviewing pool, but the last person and my one decline provided no fewer than four paragraphs on what was wrong with it. She was spot on about much of what she pointed out; I don't know that I'd ever get concrit and analysis like that for HP stories. Then again, the canon material is totally different.

I have read a fair bit of bland fanfic, but also some truly glorious writing that far outstripped JKR. Perhaps no fanfic better than JRRT himself, but his style is so unique.

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adina-atl.livejournal.com - 2006-09-23 19:03 (UTC) - Expand

you know...I think the switching POV was something that made me vaguely...well, not uneasy...but made me feel like there was something off about that story.

I have always tried sticking to just one point of view when I write. Sometimes, I have not succeeded. It's difficult enough in writing slash sometimes to identify the character's action/speech when you have two (or more - and don't get me starte on that) he's or a couple of she's in the scene.

The biggest exception to this rule was in writing a story with two other lovely ladies. We tended to shift perspective as each of us took a character in the scene to concentrate on...even though the shift was not indicated by anything other than a paragraph break.

I think that POV shifts just have to fit in with the flow of the story. Just like anything, it can be done well, and it will appear seamless...or jerky jumps in POV can drive me out of the rhythm of the story and make me put down the book, or click out of the story.

You always come up with such great topics of conversation, ya know!

*huggles*

I have always tried sticking to just one point of view when I write. Sometimes, I have not succeeded. It's difficult enough in writing slash sometimes to identify the character's action/speech when you have two (or more - and don't get me starte on that) he's or a couple of she's in the scene.

Aha- that comment again about it being "more okay" if you're writing a sex scene. I'm fascinated by that! I think that it's in slash sex scenes (hopefully just two; I don't know that I could write a threesome again, it's such a struggle with the pronouns) that really talented writers show their colors by sticking with one POV and me not being confused as a reader. It takes a lot of work.

You always come up with such great topics of conversation, ya know!

You're so kind! This really did come up due to a recent incident, and putting the topic out in front of fellow authors has proven to be a very fertile discussion. Thank you so much for joining in!

Switching POV's during a scene is a no-no in my book.

Hear, hear. Thanks for your thoughts.

I don't see anything wrong with it.

If it's done well, I shouldn't even be able to notice it, and it should make sense as part of the story. Only when mishandled does it turn the narrative to shite.

Same with any writing trick or technique, I guess.

:)

If it's done well, I shouldn't even be able to notice it, and it should make sense as part of the story. Only when mishandled does it turn the narrative to shite.

Excellent point. And now that I've received so many thoughtful responses, it does appear that there's not a hard and fast rule, and even if there were, someone would be bound to break it and still win awards, so… there you go.

For me, my personal preference is "pick one and stick with it" but that's just me. Thank you for writing! And your comments are both thorough *and* succinct. :)

this english major and one-time writer HATES head hopping. it should be banned. of course, i'm talking the mid-scene sudden "hey, how they heck am i over here" variety. the usual shift between the *two* (and most writing should involve just two) main characters at scene/chapter breaks is acceptable. novel length expected and welcome. shorter short story length, you should pick a character and stay with them.

head-hopping is simply a sign of weakness on the part of the author not being able to effectively write, or trying to convey too much. it is a bad habit that should be broken early on. you loose tension by revealing all points of view, not to mention you confuse/annoy/piss off the reader.

there are authors -- huge bestselling authors, no less -- i refuse to read because of constant head-hopping. i remember making it to page five of one book and having to throw it across the room because i got the POV of the f**ing dog in the middle of a paragraph that already contained 3 POVs. laziness, weakness and crap.

i remember making it to page five of one book and having to throw it across the room because i got the POV of the f**ing dog in the middle of a paragraph that already contained 3 POVs. laziness, weakness and crap.

LOLOL!! Y'know, I can see you doing that. Something like you just described would irritate the CRAP out of me. It would just seem like the author was saying, "Look at my writing style! Aren't I clever and cute?" Yuck. Vomit.

novel length expected and welcome. shorter short story length, you should pick a character and stay with them.

That's a pretty fair comment. I'm in your camp, though: I really do prefer just the one POV.

I vote for "no POV-switching within a scene." It'll make me click the back button, seriously.

Multiple POVs in a fic are fine, though, when demarked by a new scene. I think of it as another issue than the one above.

I think multiple POVs are an old-fashioned thing - I'm reading an E.M. Forster story where he does it constantly, even within a paragraph. Can't say I like it much, but he's dead, so I can't make him toe the line, either.

ROFL at your icon. How apropos!

Multiple POVs in a fic are fine, though, when demarked by a new scene. I think of it as another issue than the one above.

Yeah, I accidentally combined the two. If I can tell an author's doing it on purpose, okay. When it just seems that they're going back and forth, paragraph to paragraph, I think they're being lazy.

I think multiple POVs are an old-fashioned thing - I'm reading an E.M. Forster story where he does it constantly, even within a paragraph. Can't say I like it much, but he's dead, so I can't make him toe the line, either.

Good point! I've shamefully not read any Forster, though I need to. I wonder if the changing POVs would make me crazy, though. One of the disturbing downsides of having become a writer myself is that only rarely now can I be sucked into a story like I used to; I find myself admiring or damning the prose style and adjective/adverb use as though I'm an editor. :sigh:

As with most other literary techniques, I think a lot depends upon the skill with which a POV shift is done. But generally a shift in mid-paragraph in an otherwise straightforward piece of prose will be read (by me, anyway) as clumsiness rather than intent.

Yes, I completely agree. Clumsiness or even unawareness, if a new writer, or lazy if someone's been writing a while.

I don't think I've written anything in third person omniscience. Maybe I should try! Bit daunting, though; I suppose I'd rather be in the head of just the one character.

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anna-wing.livejournal.com - 2006-09-23 14:40 (UTC) - Expand

Is it a trend, using willy-nilly POV LOL. I couldn't help it. this line just cracked me up.

I've read a few fics where the POV changed and then back and changed again. I think it went well though, as there was clear indications the POV had changed, exp. a new paragraph. To change POV in the same paragraph I think would get confusing. And I believe I do the same thing at times.

I know I tend to change verb tenses at different times. I have a hard time with verbage, some times.

(just an aside; I love that I now know why you put clue words in the subject heading. That's really smart!!)

I think it went well though, as there was clear indications the POV had changed, exp. a new paragraph. To change POV in the same paragraph I think would get confusing.

Yeah; this one was changing every couple of paragraphs, and it was a sex scene, which people seem to be more forgiving about. I just figure you're being somewhat easier on yourself if you stick with the one person, but at times you do have to work harder to do that.

Verb tense can be tricky. A lot of writing is, and it takes having someone else point things out to you. I still think that

llembas should be given some kind of beta sainthood for teaching me as much as she did. Some of my earliest stuff before I knew any better was really 'this is making my eyeballs bleed' kind of horrible. I've come a long way!! :D

I personally find maintaining a single POV a great discipline.

Instead of switching and changing between character's POV, and frankly confusing the reader (I once read a 1000 word story with 5 different 1st person POV), a single POV allows focus.

A single intense POV shapes the story and encourages innovation, finding ways to tell your story with in the constraints you've set. It also allows you to shed dead weight, lose non critical elements of the story, which can be explained or rerepresented later. You need to decide which character's POV most clearly aligns with the purpose of your story.

I personally like to restrain myself to a single POV per chapter, though I occassionally stretch to two. (Clearly differenciated).

That said, I have broken the rule on occasion, specifically when I purposely allowed the POV to follow a stream of events, much like a movie camera sometimes does (The movie "Love Actually" is a great example)

2c ZA

I personally find maintaining a single POV a great discipline.

Yes, indeed.

A single intense POV shapes the story and encourages innovation, finding ways to tell your story with in the constraints you've set. It also allows you to shed dead weight, lose non critical elements of the story, which can be explained or rerepresented later. You need to decide which character's POV most clearly aligns with the purpose of your story.

Nicely phrased. Thank you for your contribution!

I reckon I'm of the 'stick with one POV' camp. Not against a justified switch if it's warranted or well marked, but I suppose that's purely subjective. I do find mid-paragraph switches jarring, as well as POV's that flop about repeatedly. I enjoy telling the story from one character's point of view, and I don't always want the reader to know what the OTHER character(s) are thinking.

When I was writing my first multi-chap, I went to great lengths to keep each chapter's POV from one character only, no matter how difficult it was. There was one chapter where I switched the POV's between three characters to tell a scene from each character's POV; I warned of it at the beginning of the chap, and used paragraph breaks. No one really complained, and I sort of like how it turned out. Later in the same fic, I think I used three chapters to describe the same sequence of events from three different POV's.

Thanks for this, luv, even though I'm well behind the pack here...

When I was writing my first multi-chap, I went to great lengths to keep each chapter's POV from one character only, no matter how difficult it was.

:nods: It is a discipline, to be sure. But I like that about it. It is funny, though, because when I first started writing I really wasn't aware of it at all. And now I'm realizing that I'm actually afraid/unwilling to write anything that isn't just from one character's POV. I don't know that I could ever write third person omniscient, say. Of course, this probably means that I want to be too involved with the characters!!

Thank you for posting, luv.

Go read Willa Cather's Neighbor Rosicky, a short story. My training was always show don't tell, watch your POV's. I love how she tells all over the place and switches POV in mid paragraph sometimes. My thought is you can get away with anything you can actually get away with.

My thought is you can get away with anything you can actually get away with.

A fair enough thought! But if I as the reader feel as though I'm being hauled around from person to person, I'm going to put the story down. There could be exceptions, I'm sure, but it's been good to hear people's thoughts about this.

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this isn't a thorough or eloquent 'english major' response, but...

Re: this isn't a thorough or eloquent 'english major' response, but...

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POV

Re: POV

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